512tr Investment Quality

[gsjohnson]

I am new to this forum and I am currently in the process of selling my 1966 Shelby. The end goal is to buy a 512tr for my money. I realize the Testarossa is quite a bit cheaper and I know the differences. I know enough to be dangerous, but I am far from an expert. From what I have read, the Testarossa has bottomed out and has enjoyed a slight increase in value. My question is, can I expect the same with the 512TRs or have they even bottomed out yet? It's not that I am just buying the car for an investment, I love these cars. But I am not a rich man and I bought my Shelby over 15 years ago for 15K and now the car is worth over a 120K in its' curent state. I need to protect my money, otherwise I would just buy a 360 Modena. Although I am set on a 12 cylinder Ferrari with its' raped engine sound, that is what so endeared me to these cars to begin with. Another question I have is, why do so many of these cars state "New Clutch" in their for sale ads when they have such low miles? Is there a problem with the clutches on these cars? I mean, I'm seeing cars with 15,000 miles on the clock with new clutches on several of them. What gives with that? I thought the 512TRs had an improved clutch system? Any input would be appreciated. And if I am going in the wrong direction, please don't hesitate to tell me so.

[Pcar928fan]

I would say 512's and Testas have NOT bottomed out yet, and the cost of maintenance will eat ANY potential profit for the future. You need to find the next big thing... Your Shelby was a perfect example, but to replicate that sort of return you might as well just play the lottery. I don't think you will find that kind of return on ANY "mass" produced Ferrari...at least not for the next 30+ years. YMMV! I could be totally wrong on this, but I would not want to play the game you are looking to play with a car that is going to cost $75k-$80k and then if you actually want to drive it another $5k a year on average over the next 10+ years...then try and turn the thing for $1MM...which would be the equal of your Shelby return roughly...

Again, YMMV!

[gsjohnson]

Originally Posted by Pcar928fan

I would say 512's and Testas have NOT bottomed out yet, and the cost of maintenance will eat ANY potential profit for the future. You need to find the next big thing... Your Shelby was a perfect example, but to replicate that sort of return you might as well just play the lottery. I don't think you will find that kind of return on ANY "mass" produced Ferrari...at least not for the next 30+ years. YMMV! I could be totally wrong on this, but I would not want to play the game you are looking to play with a car that is going to cost $75k-$80k and then if you actually want to drive it another $5k a year on average over the next 10+ years...then try and turn the thing for $1MM...which would be the equal of your Shelby return roughly...

Again, YMMV!

Just to clarify, I am not looking to make any sort of significant gain in profit, only to maintain or to gradually gain on my 100K. I'm not looking to make any sort of killing. I was just very fortunate and in the right place at the right time with my Shelby. I'm not looking to duplicate that feat. You say 5K a year in maintenace? How so? It's not a daily driver. I have a 2001 Carrera with an original 11,000 miles on it and I would probably say that I would drive the 512 less than that. In 11,000 miles on my Carrera, I have changed the oil 3 times, replaced an air filter and replaced the 2 rear tires with a 4 wheel alignment in 8 years. I know a Porsche is not a Ferrari, but everything is expensive on Porsches as well. I'll venture that the tires on my Carrera are more expensive and have to be replaced more frequently. Its' interesting that you state that Testas have not bottomed out. Everything I have read states that they have with a small gain as of recent. Your the first person that states they have not bottomed. I mean you can buy a nice Testa for 65K. 512TRs are over a 100K for a nice one. Thanks for your input and feel free to respond.

[Pcar928fan]

You may be right...maybe they are at the bottom. I suspect a 550/575 is more desirable and they are still coming down like mad! You can get into 550's for under $90k these days. I would think that would FORCE the TR's and Testas down further. Just from following some other lists it seems that the later cars are more reliable.

If you are not using it regularly then you may well be right. $5k a year (I was thinking really an average over 5+ years on that one BTW) might be a little much. The thing is a clutch is going to cost what???? $8k??? Maybe more... I don't know, I am asking, but a freaking 360 is that much, so I can't imagine a Testa/TR would be any less, and would in fact suspect it would be more.

There was a report on another list I just read of a guy who had a distributor go south on him taking out one bank of the flat 12 and it nearly caught the car on fire as the cat over heated getting raw fuel dumped in it... That was several $1k's there. Of course this is kind of a luck of the draw thing too and can happen to ANY car.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to break even, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you think you are going to make money... You have a 996...have those bottomed out yet??? I think not. They only imported 422 of my beloved 928GTS's, but even at that and a current going rate for a NICE ONE of $38kish THEY have not bottomed out either. SUCK!

Buy one right and enjoy it. Keep it nice and when you are done playing I bet you will get most of your money out of it. Less, gas and insurance for sure, and you might not get the cost of repairs out of it, but you will have driven it for little and enjoyed the heck out of it!

Keep us posted...love to hear how it turns out for you.

[gsjohnson]

You're right...There is no question that my 996 is far from bottoming out and is still declining in value. But, I didn't take a 100 grand cash and go buy it either. I financed that car with 20K down. Sticker was 91K and I would guess the car is worth 45K as we speak. I'm guessing the bottom is 25K-30K for my 996. Same reason I won't buy a 360 Modena. So, I'm looking at older Ferraris where I won't get hurt as bad. And I gotta have that 12 cylinder song as well. I think realistically, you will have to pull the motor on a Testa or 512 every 5 years to perform a major and you might as well do a clutch at the same time. If it's not every 5 years, it's every 30k. But, I doubt I'd put 30K on the car the entire time I own it. I'm thinking the 512s will fall a little more, but the Testas I think have hit bottom. I'm not an expert so I wanted to solicit other opinions on the subject. I would much rather have a 512, more hp, bigger brakes, better handling and overall a much more refind Testa version. It's just the price tag is significantly higher for the 512.

[Pcar928fan]

Originally Posted by gsjohnson

I'm not an expert so I wanted to solicit other opinions on the subject. I would much rather have a 512, more hp, bigger brakes, better handling and overall a much more refind Testa version. It's just the price tag is significantly higher for the 512.

Yea, I am no expert either...by a LONG shot, I was just thinking along the lines of what we are seeing in the other lines. I agree if you are getting an F-car get a V12, but there are PLENTY of folks out there who LOVE and prefer the V8's! The benefit of the Testa/TR is that they are the last of the mid engine V12's! Have you checked on the price tag of an every 5 yr or so engine pull and clutch job??? I am not sure, but it would not surprise me if once all was said and done you will have spent $10k...so $2k a year maybe a bit more virtually no matter how much you drive it.

How many Test/512's did they build??? The key with ANY car is to go w/ something that was built in VERY LIMITED numbers. At least if you want to have any chance of getting your money back out of it. Also, you have to buy what you like. It is pointless to buy a car you don't like just because you think it will not loose much money and might actually appreciate. I mean if you don't like you are not going to drive it or enjoy it and thus probably not going to care for it well either...

$91k for a 996, isn't it amazing how expensive the 911's have become??? As for the bottom for the 996...still to early to tell. I don't think you will EVER see a 996 NOT loose some money. It may slow to a crawl but any individual car that is getting miles is just going to continue to be worth less and less. Park it and leave it set and you might see its drop slow nearly to a stop in a few more years, but it is to early to really tell at this point. Again, it comes down to how many did they build?? In the case of the 996's they built TENS OF THOUSANDS of them! Porsche probably built more 996's than Ferrari has built CARS! I don't know that for sure, again, I am full of guesses these days and then some! LOL!

Keep us posted...

[gsjohnson]

James-I think there's a lot of truth in your thoughts. No question the 996 will continue to decline and I always expected it would. This Ferrari purchase is a whole different kettle of fish. First, I plan on paying cash for the car. And other than my 401K and my other collector cars, it is practically all the cash I have to my name. I'm 55 years old and I have told myself that I will own a Ferrari since I was 18 years old. It's now or never. My wife thinks that I am certifiable, considering I'm so close retirement. But she knows I will stay the course. I've pretty much settled on a 512tr. I think its the best car for the money and presents a low risk factor for my 100K. I could go with an earlier plain Testa and sock a little away, but the 512tr is a way better car. I'm even willing to pull the motor myself and pull off a major with a timing belt and a clutch replacement. I'd perform a nut and bolt resto on the engine and bay area while I was at it. It certainly is a lot larger project than I'm use to, but I have performed numerous rotisserie restorations on Shelbys, Boss 302s, Torinos, etc. I'm just older & slower now, so the 512 may take me 2 or 3 months to get thru it. I can handle a small short term decline on the 512 in terms of its value trend, but I don't want to suffer a major decline in value. Thus, the reason for this thread.

[gsjohnson]

I just realized I posted this thread in the wrong Forum catagory. My apologies for being a dufus.

[Pcar928fan]

Originally Posted by gsjohnson

I'm even willing to pull the motor myself and pull off a major with a timing belt and a clutch replacement. I'd perform a nut and bolt resto on the engine and bay area while I was at it. It certainly is a lot larger project than I'm use to, but I have performed numerous rotisserie restorations on Shelbys, Boss 302s, Torinos, etc. I'm just older & slower now, so the 512 may take me 2 or 3 months to get thru it. I can handle a small short term decline on the 512 in terms of its value trend, but I don't want to suffer a major decline in value. Thus, the reason for this thread.

AH! Now you didn't explain that you were willing to do the work on the car. That can make a big difference with F-cars (not as big w/ P-cars). I agree with your point that it is a GOOD TIME to buy a Ferrari. A 512TR the position of being the last of the classic era (if will) mid engine V12's and I think that will bode well for the future, BUT the styling (in my opinion) has not aged well so that can cost a bit on the desireability side.

With the current market conditions probably spending the $100k on a TR is a better investment than a mutual fund... Been watching my 401k TANK the last month or so! NICE! NOT!

I too have a patient and long suffering wife who puts up with me and my crazy hobbies! It is good to find one of those!

Now you just have to find the right car. As long as you expect to just get your money out of it in 5-10 years I think you will be close and you won't be unhappy about having owned a good TR/512. If you happen to catch the F-car market up (which does happen from time to time) you could even make a few bucks, if you do some resto work on the car and the market is down, you will probably loose very little.

Best,
James

[gsjohnson]

Your right the Testas and the 512s styling has not stood the test of time well. There are some very good views of the car, but there are some poor ones as well. The worst angle is the straight on from the side. That's pretty ugly. A 180 degees to the prettiest is the straight on look from the rear IMHO.

But ya gotta luv that shot from the rear with those 12 cylinders at full song. The car certainly has the WOW factor as well.