Mondial Electrical problems solved Alternatorbattery load mismatch

I was using the "row of lights" as an example. Christmas lights are not actually in series, more like series-paralel I think since there's usually a third wire.

I bought a Delco Alternator for an 85 Cadillac Deville I think, it's almost identicle to the Bosch 0120468537, except it's a three wire 120 amps. The original aluminum bracket that holds the alternator in place has two mounting points. I noticed that Ferrari had a problem with the bracket accepting the alternator and allowing it any adjustment because it looks like they had to grind down the rear mounting point to accept the Bosch alt. I'm posting a picture of it minus the grind job. I had to grind down the front to match the rear because the Delco one, although similar has more "girth" (material) and did not allow adjustment on the belt without grinding the front side a bit. I merely matched the rear as I was concerned about taking away too much material and weakening the hold points. I just ground down the front one to match so that I could actually tilt the alternator on the bolt as a pivot point and have some adjustment on the belt. So far so good.
Have not had time to wire it yet. I also had to adjust how deep the alternator sat in relation to the belt and crank pulley but that was easy enough. I measured the difference with a micrometer 5mm, I made up this distance with 3 washers between the front inside bracket and the alternator. Everything looks good so far. This alternator is huge compared to the stock one and the belt had very little adjustment. I wish I could get a slightly longer belt. 1 inch longer would give me plenty of adjustment. After the belt was on and all the bolts tightened I had about half inch up/down slack which is manufacturer suggested so I'm happy. Like I said I haven't wired it yet but I have 2 concerns; My first concern is that I couldn't put the rear heat shield back on the alternator and now the alternator, due to it's larger size (120 Amps remember) sits very close to the engine thus more heat. I bought exhaust wrap and to be honest this is the first time using it so who knows. I've heard that it will reduce engine compartment temp by 70% but I doubt that. I guess in a nutshell my concern is heat. Just in case anyone is wondering, I didn't just get up one day and decided to redo the cars charging system. I've been looking for a suitable substitute for some time but also for a permanent fix to the low voltage problems. I will post some info I've found next for anyone that needs it

While I'm at it I'm also replacing the Starter with a new high torque starter. The starter unit is actually smaller than the actuator on the old one. It makes a serious difference in weight and space. I was able to omit the rear middle bracket of the original starter. This was in place to reduce vibration and force applied to the bolts which is no longer necessary due to the reduction in weight and size. Here's a pic of it...

Here's a pic of the back of my new Alternator and how to hook it up...
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1) This is the main power wire that goes directly to the battery. This is the heavy wire from the original Alt.

2) This is the NEW wire that energizes the alternator. It must be switched, or else it will drain the battery overnight. Do not wire this into the coil power wire that you use to switch the engine on and off since once the engine is running the alternator will feed power back through this wire, which will then power the coil, and you won't be able to shut your car off.
Find a different wire, preferably a Hot when ON wire that is currently running at a low voltage, something less than 12V is ideal since your alternator will use this as a reference for the voltage regulator.

3) This is the green wire originally hooked up to the OEM alt that goes to the idiot light in your instrument panel.

You can use the coil power wire if you fit a simple relay. So you can keep the wires short.

You can fool regulators if you put a cheap, standard 1 ampere 4001-4 diode in series with this wire, the output voltage will be 0.65 volts higher. This should make the relay unnecessary too.

James,
where did you source the high torque starter ?

James/Chris
Many thanks for the great discussion on /3 wire alternators. My engine is out being rebuilt at Norwoods in Dallas and I would like to take this opportunity to do a three wire upgrade. I also have a high torque starter ready to put in as well.
I am also a bit concerned about heat and size of the alternator. I am going to tubi headers without shielding ther than ceramic coating think size is an issue. I have heard that some alternator shops will rebuild your current alternator to a higher specification for large sound systems - could they also do a 3 wire conversion?
James - I will be in Dallas tomorrow (Friday 10 Aug) - will you be around to discuss this?

Chris - what specific recommendations would you have for a definitive 3 wire upgrade?

I think I am also going to replace my digital clock with a digital voltmeter.

Thanks all!

unfortunatly I'm not in Dallas for a while...doing that pesky bone marrow transplant in Little Rock AR, should be here about a month, then home for a month then back here so I wont be able to help.

Before I went about this alternator deal I found the place that rewires alternators all over the country, apparently they subcontract through mobile audio places and that have a need for higher amp applications.

They promissed me they could do it. But only if they could inspect mine first.

I went to a place in Alrington called
Dub Mobile Sound on North Cooper ave. They had this awesome display up with a before and after that was chrome and 150 AMPS! That got my attention. They guaranteed that they could rewire any alternator.. so back to the garage I went.

I took mine out, first came the "ballpark" estimate of $500 complete. I said ok, then I got a call that said the chrome was $100 more, again I said ok, ...2 days later (a week now) they call me and said that they took my alternator appart and did not have the capability or availability for parts because it was too old and no longer produced by bosch... duh! I knew that, that's why I was having it rewound instead of replaced..anyway. They said they couldn't get the VR or the brushes. I know yours (russ) is a newer one so it's very possible that they could do it, then again I think my whole entire job will be around $120 including the exhaust wrap for the heat issue.

So since your engine is out already I would probably go for an upgrade of the JR like(JR=me).
Some of the Pro's for me were;
Costs,
Kept original incase something happens,
Did I mention cost?
Double the amperage,
Greater reliability
It's brand new,
Life time warranty through O'reilleys,
But the most important thing is that third reference wire that is not built into the alternator.

That alone was a make or break deal for me. I'm tired of dim lights, slow windows, well...slow everything, even my solenoids to open the gas and hoods are giving me a hard time. It's time to do it right.

The funny thing is I thought doing it right would mean it would cost more but now looking at how cheap that Hi Tork starter and this alt biz is, I think I'm going to start reconsidering my options from now on.

Did I ever tell you how much Norwood quoted me to rebuild my engine? twice what it cost me to do it except I got another 100hp our of it. Nothing against Norwood, I love them just wish I could afford them.

The cons to not rewiring my Alt?; No chrome.

I had to leave for the hospital before it could be finished so don't know when I'll have it running but electrically speaking this WILL work. I have 3 concerns still;
The heat issue,
my own measurements, which are always subject to interpretation depending on the time of day and liquor consumed..
lack of adjustment at the belt.

I really need to talk to someone about a longer belt, I really would like to pull the alternator further away from the block, as is now, I have about half inch clearance between the block and the alternator and I feel that maybe 2 inches would be more practical for airflow. I was also thinking about making an insulated heat shroud that would go around the concern parts.

There is however, a very easy and practical sollution to the heat issue and I believe Ferrari figured it out in the early 90's - There's two types of alternators, the fully enclosed that uses the push/fan at the front by the pulley to push air into the alternator (what I have and similar to the one pictured above) and out the back which does little to cool the main component...the VR, by the time the already hot air passes through the hot windings it hits the VR with it's maximum heat absobtion. It's like pounding it with a hair dryer.
The later Ferrari one, Pictured below, like the 348 for example , I believe it's a Hitachi type. Notice it has openings all around it and no fan at the front. Apperantly what it does is suck air through the body of the ALT and expells it out the front and back equally. To me this is precisely what mine needs because as is now the only air it pulls in is the heated air rising from the exhaust pipe directly beneath it, it's actually the collector so I get a significant hot air mixture up there. I'm working with a guy at O'rilleys auto parts who let me go through every single box of alternators they had until I found the one I needed. I found an exact dup. but exactly aneimic at 65Amps so I opted for a slightly beefeer knowing that I would have to make some modefications. As long as the bolt patterns were there I could adjust and it works.

So now that I have a delco part number, and all the brackets and spacing have been worked out,
it's a matter of having him order me one in the other "Hitachi style".

He said he'd even take the one I bought back in exchange even though I told him I just needed it to make the bracket-- hell of a guy! Any hoot, if anyone's willing to wait until I get home I'll post the numbers and you guys can do the same. I think the three wire is deffinately the way to go but many have been wrong on here before and I don't pretend to be the know it all In this company I consider myself the rookie wrench turner.

I was reading russ's other threads and was humbled at the fact that I know nothing about carburation for example...start throughing numbers at me and watch me cry.
Anyhoot, Russ, I bought 50' of fiberglass exhaust wrap on ebay for $25 and I'm about 25' short for the headers and 50' short if I wanted to wrap the entire system. Oh yeah had to get a bag of 3-4" hose clamps at the Depot. I don't really like them but they'll do for now. Once I get my strength back I think I'm going to pull the engine and detail it with some different stuff. All this while trying to sell it too. got about 50K invested in it selling for 20K and can't stop! I just love this car, it has so much potential now. I remember 3 years ago you couldn't get spark plugs now I see people making parts at home. I'm happy, oh yeah, if you meet my wife make sure you tell her the car's for sale...truth is I don't think I'm ever going to sell it.

I'm already looking for a decent 348 for my next one...that's if I make it home of course gotta go, the chemo starting to kick my ass.

Now, I know I'm not very smart but I try not to nitpick too much at some of the silly threads on here but com'on, I was using the christmas lights as a metaphor... I know that christmas lights are hooked up in parallel...now, but many moons ago they came in series, and what I was actually refering to was my own personal attempt to save wire by adding about 24 light sockets for a high school project using only one wire and that's really where my example came from. I also know that Ferrari as most auto manufacturers try to use parallel conections however there's more to just connections as you have to take into consideration resistance and many other things. I just didn't want to go overboard and loose the readers so I stayed with the easiest possible explanations. Like I said, I know there are smarter people than me on this post but don't judge me by my writing as I'm going by the easiest way to understand a concept that may be foreign to the non mechanically/electrically or electronical as I used to say it among us. Please forgive me but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that's where things are learned but if I'm talking about alternators let's keep it to alternators. If you want to talk about chritmas lights let me know and I'll open up a thread specifically dedicated to christmas lights .. the rest enjoy!

REPLY TO:
Chris Fricke (Tomdial)
New member
Username: Tomdial

Post Number: 46
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 08:16 am:

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You're absolutely right. I remember doing the diode biz back on an old MGB I used to have.... talk about weird elctrical systems. I couldn't figure out why my battery would go dead and couldn't shut the car off. Great catch however for me, I'm choosing to go for a wire that's already below the 12V. I found some wires under my dash that feed god knows what that have so much resistance at the fuse box that by the time they reach their intended source they're already 10V - I was thinking if I use this wire as a reference the great circuits will still receive the max of 14V while my low circuits will at least receive 12V. What I'm really looking for is maybe a return wire that would actually represent the entire electrical system, if anyone knows of such wire let me know. If the car had a factory volt meter that would probably be the wire although you can never be too sure. If you can think of it please let me know as I'm still undecided. The only reason I would concider the coil wire at this junction is location and asthetics. Fairly short wire that I could hide easy but I measured the coils and they're getting a respectible 11.45V - would like to find a wire with a lower voltage. The window wires for example are at 9.85 V from having to go through those switches unfortunatly they're always on for me from a previous mod to try and put relays in place to see if they would work faster... they did but still not what I'm happy with. Anyway, thanks, I'm saving this post incase I can't find another connection point.
JR

REPLY TO:


George (Ff3)
New member
Username: Ff3

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 04:57 pm:

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George,
It's a long story but the same place Russ got his, I think.. I found this company doing these conversions for brit cars when I was restoring MG's back about 10 years ago and became friends with someone there. Later on when he found out I bought a Ferrari he said he could make me one for my Ferrari if I gave him mine for a prototype, the deal was I could have the first one for cost since I was providing the template. It went great, I was so pleased that I asked him to let me source them out and sell them to my F friends (check out items for sale on this site) and that's when it got sticky, they wouldn't sell them to me for cost then they did what I was going to do and started advertising on eBay. No harm/no faul though, it's a great company and they deliver a great product. I mean business is business and I did get mine for like $275 but I think they're going for $400 on eBay. I think they once told me that if I could sell 10 of them they'd sell them to me for $350 each. I bought 5 and they sold in a week but I didn't make any money on the deal and they started doing what I was doing, except they already had a business account with eBay and well it was easier for them.
Tell them JR sent you see if they give you a discount but like I said, business is business. Here's the company's info...
www.britishstarters.com
They're always posted on ebay. Nicksforzaferrari also sells them but through me so no deal there. If you want the best price go straight to the source and talk to Martin. Or buy on eBay and hope you're lucky. I love Nicks Forza Ferrari and I buy what I can from him but he's not cheap so sometimes I have to go otherplaces. I love that people are finally making parts for these awesome parts. I'm keeping my eye on both supercharger deals going on within these pages to see who wins out... then we'll see although I been told that with my 11:1 compression ratio it's not going to work well, I also got stainless steel valves which are not suitable ... at least that's what I've been told. This was an easy upgrade, you'll need to remove the alternator to get the old one out, remove the rear hold down bracket, loosen the four bolts and wiggle it out through the alternator opening. I took my AC completely out so no worries for me there. easy mounting but the electrical hook up took some doing for my fat fingers. good luck.
JR

Chris Fricke (Tomdial)
New member
Username: Tomdial

Post Number: 42
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, August 06, 2007 - 10:32 am:

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Ok I get it now, Chris, I have a Mondial8 that's why your stuff didn't make sense to me. The alternator changed in late 83 or 84 when they went to the 3.2 - then yes, you could just make a dup delco substitution. My old bosch just didn't make the cut. That's why I couldn't get parts for a re-wire. I believe Russ has the newer style too so your suggestion will probably make more sense to him. Did you say when you rebuilt it you were able to get the third wire option? Also what would be the appropriate Delco number with the three wire that would actually fit your car? I'm wondering if perhaps it would be easier that way although I'm very happy with the 120A right out of the box deal I got. lifetime warr. etc.