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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Another ENZO was destroyed in

Another ENZO was destroyed in Utah on the Utah Fastpass rally that was organized and coordinated by the Utah Highway Patrol. 50 year old SON of a wealthy Utah Businessman was warned to be careful in the middle third of the highway course as it had a few bad woops in the road. After he crashed and put himself in the hospital, he commented "it was just a car" Guess I am from the old school, But, I'd kick his butt back into the hospital.
This made the front page of the weekend addition of the Wall Street Journal 8-19-06

Discussion Starter · #2 ·
All 3 of the Pre-Release Lambo

All 3 of the Pre-Release Lambo LP640's have been wrecked or tagged (#3 with Balboni was only tagged) & the Press made a huge issue out of Cars with too much HP. Nothing has been attributed to lack of driving skills so far.

Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Agree Mitch! Cars like these w

Agree Mitch! Cars like these with so much HP really take quite a bit of skill & practice to handle, especially on the streets where there are so many variables. Even master drivers can have one of these Super Cars jump out from under them if not being careful. I'll be one of the first to admit that blasting in one of these cars is fun, but a high degree of caution is needed all the time, especialy on the streets.

Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think, also, that especially

I think, also, that especially with street cars derived from race cars (like Ferraris and a few others), that different handling dynamics are involved than one finds on more normal high performance cars.

For example, a F348/F355 ferrari is extremely sensitive to rear ride height, while a C5/C6 Corvette is almost independent of ride height when it comes to oversteer/understeer. A 3mm change in the rear ride height can change an F355 from an oversteering pig into an understeering pig! Conversely, one can raise or lower a C5/C6 vette by 2 inches with negligible change in overseer/understeer relationship. Many people lower their (already absurbly low) F348/F355s and claim 'better' handling. In reality, they have induces a lot of understeer to the mid speed chassis characteristics. So, in reality, what has happened is that these drivers simply 'like' and understeering car rather than a naturally neutral car with oversteer on demand (throttle).

So, inorder to drive a high performance race bred car at speed on a public road, (almost) demands that this car and driver have considerable experience on a road race track, and suitable chassis adjustments made; BEFORE attempting such speeds on public roads!!

Super high speeds require an intimate connection between what the car will do and what the driver needs to do to correct, so that the DRIVER stays AHEAD of the car. (Also known as Anticipation) Get behind your car at super high speed and you are simply an accident waiting to happen.

Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It's really hard to compeh

It's really hard to compehend how few owners of these Super Cars have ever had any lessons or Track Experience. In effect they don't realize an ever changing condition vs a known condition & really don't have the knowledge & experience needed to correct mistakes. As the HP Wars esculate I think things will get worse before they get better unfortunately.

Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I coach a guy with a brand new

I coach a guy with a brand new F430 at track events. At the FCA meet at VIR, I drove the car very hard to base line it in my mind. What I found was that even in the hands of experience, the traction control was not allowing me to do the normal lift to rotate the rear of the car(trailing throttle rotation) Also, in places on the track, it would not allow any throttle to the engine if the computer was not happy. The car would not accellerate off the corners if the computer didn't like the loads. It would go into a bad hesitation.This was in the "race position, in normal or low traction positions, it was undrivable on the track at any decent speed.) (not safe with other cars following closly) I finally had to turn it all off to get the car to do what I was trying to do. Drivers new to high horsepower need to learn about what the power can do, and a new problem appears as they really learn to drive,, the computer doing things that may not allow the car to do what the driver told it to do. That can catch even experienced drivers out. I think that people should take at least one good driving school before they explore these cars at their limits. They can be made to go very fast, but you really have many things to learn. I have driven all forms of racing cars since 1968 and the F430 with all the electronic's was a real eye opener. New skills will be needed over the old skills I have honed over the years. The thought of holding the throttle down on the floor on public roads without spending many hours learning the car scares me to death. and some people do this, crash, and say "it just a car"

Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As Mitch stated, "Super hi

As Mitch stated, "Super high speeds require an intimate connection between what the car will do and what the driver needs to do to correct, so that the DRIVER stays AHEAD of the car. (Also known as Anticipation) Get behind your car at super high speed and you are simply an accident waiting to happen."
This is so true, but, if the driver does not understand that the electronics can change in milliseconds what the driver wanted the car to do,,, another bad ride. The driver needs to anticipate the feel of the car and stay ahead of the car, but now he also needs to know what the computer will or will not allow in milliseconds. Tough job, those milliseconds. New drivers to high hp do need some protection from what the power can do, and experiened drivers need to know what the electronic's may do to the control of the car. These cars are so advanced that all drivers really need to spend the track time to explore their limits. I think that they may be beyond reasonable for the street.In the hands of adult kids, just plain dangerious. And I am a gearhead car guy. Your thoughts,,,,,,

Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Bob wrote: "New drivers to

Bob wrote: "New drivers to high hp do need some protection from what the power can do,"

I disagree, what the drivers need is a healthy dose of RESPECT! With modern tire technology, any car under 300 HP can simpy be floored and scoot off (drag racing style). Somewhere between 300 HP and 400 HP you loose the ability to simply floor the accelerator. Above 400 HP you have to be very careful on adding power or instant snap spins may transpire...

"These cars are so advanced that all drivers really need to spend the track time to explore their limits."

Totally agree. People should budget 4-5 track weekends just to learn how to drive these kinds of cars.

"I think that they may be beyond reasonable for the street."

I think anything above 300 HP (or so) with modern tire technology is way beyond reasonable for the street.

I also tend to think that most 'drivers' would have at least as much fun with an MGB* drifing around corners at 0.65 Gs as we now get simply driving with negligible slip angles at 0.95 Gs (well within the limits of the car). Make a bobble sideways at 0.65 Gs, and the car moves 5 feet of line. Make that same bobble at 0.95 Gs, and you move over 3 lanes (or leave the paved surface).

[*] with 2006 mechanical reliability.....

Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I forgot to add::

My metric

I forgot to add::

My metric for HP and kids driving goes like this:

For every year that this person drives without a wreck and without a ticket, they can get 100 more HP. For any infraction, they are reset back to the starting point of 100 HP.

The big trouble here, that there are no 100 HP cars to start them off with!?!?!

Discussion Starter · #11 ·
When I lived in the Australian

When I lived in the Australian Outback in the early
1990's there was a "cannonball" type race from
Darwin South. The Northern Territory has no speed
limit outside the towns but the Stuart Highway
is a two lane road.

Two Japanese dentist from Tokyo entered an F40.
There previous driving experience was driving
in Tokyo traffic. At a high rate of speed they lsot control trying to stop for a checkpoint
killing themseleves and two marshalls. The cause
was clearly their inexperience with such a car.

Looks like the Australians are thinking about re-
instating the race. Hopefully, this time driver
credentials will be required.

Discussion Starter · #12 ·
An MGB with 2006 mechanical re

An MGB with 2006 mechanical reliability? Would that include Lucas traction control? Works until the battery goes dead.
RESPECT is a good word for a major part of this problem. Ego,money,and lack of experience leads to this problem. I am not sure that advanced dental training would help, as William has shown.
Correct me if I am off base here, but does it seem like more of these accidents are happening in the last few years? The gentleman I coach in the F430 has a touch of this new attitude, "It won't happen to me, and its only a car. I can buy another". Assuming that Lucas traction control keeps him on the road. His skill will not.

Discussion Starter · #13 ·
>>>400 HP you loos

>>>400 HP you loose the ability to simply floor the accelerator. Above 400 HP you have to be very careful on adding power or instant snap spins may transpire... <<<

I was just having this exact same conversation with a friend today. Cars over 400HP can jump right out from under even experienced drivers if they are not paying attention & not 100% into Car Control. An F40 under full throttle in first gear requires total concentration & experience with 4wheel steering/drifting or it will fly right out from underneath the driver in a bad way. The idea of High Speed Classes & Driving Schools needs ALOT more attention than it's recieved. I hope this thread can convince more guys to GO to Schools before trying high speed stints/stunts on the streets.

Discussion Starter · #14 ·
When driving my new to me 95 3

When driving my new to me 95 355B home I began developing a bit of confidence with the car and thought I'd give a good test on a on ramp after a refuel to explore it a bit, hit it at 1/2 throttle on a 90' on ramp and the rear end flew out so fast it caught me by suprise, the quick ratio steering put a quick end to my slide along with feathering the throttle back to stop the wheelspin,if I would have lifted hard I would have spun out off the road for sure at a good clip, I seriously thought I'd lost the car and was going to spin at first, this kind of suprised me with the power at 1/2 throttle compared to my old 328 and the BBs handling with its added weight in the back, it was so much fun I had to turn around and hit the on ramp again a bit easier this time but damn the 355 can spin fast and easily with a slight amount of too much power applied.

Discussion Starter · #15 ·
"but damn the 355 can spin

"but damn the 355 can spin fast and easily with a slight amount of too much power applied."

The mass centralization of the F348 and F355 contribute to the quickness by which these cars can start and stop rotating. This can be agood thing if you are thinking ahead of the car, and a very bad thing if you are not. It is so much quicker than almost any non-race car, that it easily catches even well trained Vette, Viper, or Porsche drivers off guard.

The 348 had a reputation for being tail happy, but in the Speciale edition and subsequent 348's Ferrari raised the rear roll center to soften up the rear end for more grip. The added power of the 355 must simply be RESPECTed at all times.

The 360 and subsequent 430 added rotational inertia by putting the water radiators (significant weight) back at the nose of the car, slowing the dynamic response of these cars, and making them easier on the driver(s).

Discussion Starter · #16 ·
"An MGB with 2006 mechanic

"An MGB with 2006 mechanical reliability?"

Think Miata but with tires good for only 0.65 Gs.

Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thats explains it Mitch makes

Thats explains it Mitch makes sense.

Any performance driving tips to share on the 355?

The 355 is motorcycle fast once past 5000rpm, things can happen very quickly in one thats clear, matter of fact I had a guy in a special edition cafe BMW 1100cc hang with me for awhile through some mountain passes in N Arizona on my trip back, he barely was faster and I could hear him boucing off the rev limiter next to me on the 4 lane highway trying to pass. We had a good convesation after we made it to the next town about 40 miles away when I stopped for fuel he followed me in. Same thing happened later with some guys on a few rice bikes as well going into Payson through the passes.

My 355 has a stock exhaust and factory cats along with regular air filters which should give me more power when I change them out, I'd bet it would have been faster than the BWM bike with these mods.

Discussion Starter · #18 ·
"Any performance driving t

"Any performance driving tips to share on the 355?"

1) Go to the track and find an instructor you see eye-to-eye with. Then use his/her services for 10 or more track weekends. I have 4,300 track miles on my F355 and have not hurt it yet (50,000 total miles). At 44 race weekends (and being a driving instructor myself) I still have a driving instructor (and several stand ins) who can give me pointers when the grey matter is having a bad day.

2) learn track-driving on street tires. A) they last longer, B) cost less (about 1/3rd per race-track mile), and C) allow the novice to feel the car better than the r-compounds or slicks, D) incurr less damage if the car 'has' to leave the track. When you get within 2 seconds of the lap record on street tires for a car in your class (2:03 at TWS for a F355) THEN you are ready for r-compounds (1:55) or slicks (1:51).

3) In slow, out fast.

With the suspension setup on a F355, brake early! 25 to 50 feet earlier than you think you should! Get 95% (or more) of your braking done in a straight line*, and do not try to carry as much speed as you think you can. Carrying this speed invariably prevents getting back to full throttle and slows the whole next straight--that is it is slower to enter a turn with too much speed.**

Obviously use the braking time to select the gear your want for driving through the turn. Do not select a gear that will run out of revs before trackout! Unless you can downshift without causing the nose of the car to dip or raise, add 10 more feet of braking distance to those numbers above.

Get back to maintance throttle*** (10%) before (or as) you start to dial in steering input, and then immediately get up to balance throttle. Then squeeze on the gas such that you should be at full throttle ever so slightly before apex, the car in a 4 wheel drift (albeit with low slip angles). The tires (even streets) shold not be whining, but sound more like a pencil eraser rubbing across a sheet of heavy paper. Whining tires are A) slow, B) wear out quickly, C) build heat rapidly, D) leading to more whining and slower speeds.

Be sure to choose an arc through the turn that leaves the car ON the tarmac at trackout (e.g. late apex). You choose the arc between turn in and then next 20 feet or so. A well chosen arc allows you to change the direction the nose is pointing (with the throttle) without really influencing the arc that the car is drifting across.

The steering input should be as slow as you can muster and still get the nose of the car pointing slightly inside the apex (30 feet from turnin, still 100 feet from apex). The drifting car will not actually reach inside the apex, but drift naturally to the correct point. Control this drift with throttle not with steering.

By the tine you arrive at the apex, your eyes should already be picking up the braking point of the next turn. Look very far ahead!

In a 180 degree (or more) turn, there is a speed at which if you feather off on the throttle the rear end will step out, and if you add throttle the rear end will step out. When you find this point, do not try to go any faster--paitence is the name of the game.

[*] T1 at TWS running counterclockwise is an exception. Here, you drive down off the banking at full throttle (and 160 MPH) and then go to 10% braking for the 200-odd yards of T1 arriving at T2 at 90-92 MPH with the car at trackout and already having some yaw still in the car from T1.

[**] Braking is the last thing a novice driver should learn. Given that a novice is 15 or more second slower than the track record, 13-14 of those seconds are found in the line, getting back on the throttle, and smooth driving. Attempting to gain those fleeting 2 seconds often results in simply going slower. Learn the line first, smoothness second, and leave braking for next year.

4) Get the car preped correctly. Nut and bolt check, fresh oil, fresh brake fluids, tire pressures set, corner weighted,... At some point in your development you will run out of brake pads (pad fade). They will get hot and loose their coefficient of friction. It is eye opening when it happens (ask me how I know) and if you survive, it will be the last time you let it happen. At this point, you need those kinds of pads that sit between street pads and race pads. I use Ferrodo DS2500s. Later in your development, you will be gaining speed AND doing so by not using as much brakes. But stick with the street-race pads.

[***] maintance throttle is enough throttle that the car is not decellerating through the drag forces of tires causing latteral acceleration--about 7%-10%. Balance throttle is enough throttle that the front and rear tires are equally loaded in a square inch senario. Since the front tires are significantly smaller in contact patch compared to the rears, balance throttle causes a small amount of acceleration (about 0.15 Gs). This is the point of maximum stability in turning.

Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for the great write up

Thanks for the great write up Mitch

I've got alot to learn



PS Any tips on brake fluid brands or tire pressures? The car is running Michelins

I've changed the gear box fluid from the Agip the dealer installed to Redline NS huge difference and no more second gear grinds from 3rd to 2nd.

Next will be the motor oil from Agip to Mobil 1 unless something is better.

And what happened when you ran out of brakes on the track what did you do?

Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"PS Any tips on brake flui

"PS Any tips on brake fluid brands or tire pressures? The car is running Michelins "

The general target for street tires is to leave the track with pressures in the 39-40 PSI range, and if you have a tire pyrometer the temps should be in the 190-210dF range. Higher pressures or hotter temps lead to a greasy feeling from the tires. The procedure is to leave the track, then immediately measure the tire pressures and drop to 39-40 PSI, rechecking each session. Then back at home after a night sitting in the garage, then measure the resulting cold pressures to give yourself a baseline as to where to start before heading towards the next track day. Since it takes at least 5 hours for a hot tire to reach cold pressures, the time between sessions is never sufficient. And use an accurate pressure guage that allows reading as fine as 0.25 PSI.

I, personally, have never found a need for a brake fluid better (numerically) than ATE superBlue/Gold--just be sure that it is fresh.

"And what happened when you ran out of brakes on the track what did you do?"

I had to leave the paved surface! (yikes) With my driving instructor in the passenger seat. In retrospect, if I had had a few more track sessions under my belt, I would have been able to use an escape route--where I would have kept the brakes on (80% level), but initiated turn in and used the extra distance this makes possible to slow the car significantly to avoid leaving the track, albeit at much reduced velocity and a !%#$y lap time.

After this incident, I made sure the pads were up to the task, and also I remind myself on every warmup lap where the escape routes are for each turn. Just so that if the situation presents itself again, I already have a plan in mind and only have to execute to the plan.

I have been using M1 5W-40 T&SUV (recently relabeled as 5W-40 Trubo Diesel oil) for the past 1.5 years. It has a better additive (e.g. antiwear) package than their passenger car motor oils. For a street only car (and where you never see more than 240dF on the oil temp guage) any of the 0W-30s or 5W-30 full synthetic oils work just fine--for the street. If you go to the track, the 5W-40 oils are to be prefered.
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