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Discussion Starter #1
OK, this I understand. I can&

OK, this I understand. I can't quite picture the common vacuum rail but I'm sure I can find it when I look tonight.

Then after the carbs are in sync you adjust the idle mixture using the colortune (or ear), check timing and recheck sync. Correct?
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I guess I'm not fully unde

I guess I'm not fully understanding why all the idle air bleeds would be out and in need of adjustment?
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Drew,
A couple of points wort


Drew,
A couple of points worth mentioning...
The procedure I wrote is based on staring from a totally unknown baseline...

If your engine is running reasonably well, you might not want to screw the air bleeds all the way in. Rather, just verify the airflow prior to any adjustments. The "trick" to get the airflow accurate through all barrels is to do the check at the lowest possible idle speed. Once the throtte plates start to open, the volume of air going through the air bleeds becomes inconsequental as compared to the primary air going through the main barrel.

Correct...After the initial synch has been done, the mixtures are set. Colortune, ear?, accurate tachometer, lean drop method...or exhaus gas analyzer all work to set the mixture...Some methods are better than others...and past performance is no indication of future results.

The common rail, as I call it...looks like a piece of brake line, that connects all the intake manifolds on one side together, and then with a small piece of vacuum line, connects to the alu tube near the front of the valve cover breather hose. If you remove the "L" shaped hose from the VC to the breather, you'll see the "end" of the common rail and where it connects to the alu breather pipe. This is the point where I hook up my vacuum gauge(s). If you don't have two high-precision gauges, you can check airflow using your manometer, though you may need to adjust its restriction orifice to get a decent reading.

When all is said and done...I go back and recheck everything. This method may not be the best way, so I'd be curious on the JRV comments.

Best of luck!

 
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Discussion Starter #4
JRV,
Good point...
My proced


JRV,
Good point...
My procedure was based on starting from zero...
In the previous post to Drew, I make reference to that point.

David
 
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Discussion Starter #5
The reason I asked , the less

The reason I asked , the less screws the novice touches the better the outcome will be imo {
} (no offense to novices everywhere). And since the carbs are working, I was bypassing alot of potential room for miscalculation by going right to checking existing balance carb to carb and side to side conformity.

Anyway, I don't have the proper amount of time to analyze all this data and procedures at the moment, but it would be great to have this entire procedure in the permanent archives below to help future visitors and to distiguish the differences from Daytona setting & Boxer setting.

Regards, JRV
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Couldn't agree more...The

Couldn't agree more...The more screwing you do, the more likely you'll get screwed doing the carb set-up.

JRV...I do realize that the procedure I wrote is a bit lengthy, but when you have a chance, please review it...and we'll develop the finalized version for the tech archives. I'm not 100% that my procedure is the most efficient or most accurate, though it does seem to work for me.

I saved the orginal text in a MS Word document, so edit are easy....

Onward,
David
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks guys for all the inform

Thanks guys for all the information.

I understand. It's interesting that you balance the entire left side then move to the right side whereas JRV balances the primary carb on the left to the primary carb on the right. I can see how either works.

I'm going to give this a try when the manometer and colortune come in. However the first thing this novice is going to do is keep records of all the initial settings.

Drew
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Drew & David,

I think t


Drew & David,

I think this may be the difference in techniques.

In my procedure I'm already anticipating an idle rpm rise and try to mitigate to the minimum while still getting balance, and going in, I want to keep the amount of time the engine idles with unknown mixture settings (anticipating rich) to a bare minimum to avoid plug fouling before I can get to the mixture portion of the drill. So I try to quickly achieve air flow balance per control throat, in order to jump to mixture setting/checking....also my personal shortcuts start out assuming there are no especially difficult problems to deal with.

There is no quick and easy way to go thru this entire procedure and the danger I try to avoid is prolonged idleing which heats up the intake ports and skews the setting and especially fouling a plug by one or more perhaps overly rich cylinders.

Think about this and give some feedback.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
JRV,
I've given considera


JRV,
I've given considerable thought to the differences between your method of carb adjustment versus mine...and spent a few moments really looking at the linkage set-up. To be quite candid, despite the years of doing it "my way", I like an aspect of your methodology better. It does makes more sense, in the interest of getting the carbs in close synch fast, to adjust side to side (hard linkage) first....then bring the linked carbs into snych.

A very clean approach, if I don't mind saying so!
I really appreciate your input here...

If you don't mind, I'd like to edit my procedure, reflecting your suggestions...and post it in the tech archives.

Regards,
David
 
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Discussion Starter #10
David,

sure, you realized o


David,

sure, you realized of course that my shortcut certianly does't circumvent your correct lenghthy procedure, it simply anticipates a few results in advance, and once the first go round is close then one must fall back to "dialing in", by means of the full procedure you posted.

So by all means feel free to piece together all the input so far to produce a perhaps streamlined set of guidelines to help others in the future and add to the permanent tech archives.

Regards, JRV
 
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Discussion Starter #11
JRV,
Perhaps you've come


JRV,
Perhaps you've come across this driveablity issue...

Light throttle-Runs well.
Full throttle-Runs well.
Partial throttle tip-in (4000rpm, 2nd gear)...stumbles, light bucking, hesitation....then off she goes.
Seems like the "typical Weber transition" phase, but worse than I rememeber...
Even going up a moderate hill at 70kph, when you give her just a bit of throttle to maintain speed...you'll experience the symptoms described.

My gut says she'll feels lean...

Carbs are fresh...with new accel pump diaphrams.
Pump jets are spraying...
Timing set..and curve within specs.
New engine has 200km on rebuild.

Pump adjustment rods??

Not sure where to turn...

Appreciate any light on this subject.

Regards,
David
 
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Discussion Starter #12
David, my gut is saying lean a

David, my gut is saying lean also.

You know those dang progression ports gave nothing but trouble under the conditions you mention, because the motor is not quite running on either circuit......my instincts say to change the Emulsion Tubes to get a little richer, better atomization in this mid range...the other route would be to step down slightly with the AC Jet, but I like that as a second step because it fattens it up across such a wide range, when you may not need that broad of a fix.

What size idle jets are you running?
 
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Discussion Starter #13
JRV,
I was afraid that your a


JRV,
I was afraid that your answer was going to be my suspicions...though I'm surprised that Ferrari never got this worked out. The car has always had this stumble...though now it is worse than before the engine overhaul. Unfortunately, I'm very familiar with the Weber transition phase, as I cut my teeth building hypo Afa engines...and rememember, all to well, the PIA involved in tuning this bug out!

The idle jets are .50mm, as specified in the WSM and OM. Oddly...and I think I posed this scenario before...the WSM states that the idle mixtures screws are to be out 4 turns (min)....if I'm translating the Italian correctly "Apertura vite registro minimo: 4 giri circa"

Currently, my idle mixtures screws, on average, are out 3 turns. I set the idle mixture using the lean enrichment method...a shot of carb spray, or propane...adjust idle mixture to the point where there's no/little raise in idle speed (coming from the lean side to rich). My analyzer went kaputo...

In the past, as the engine breaks in further...the problem will get somewhat better..

Any other thoughts??

Regards,
David
 
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Discussion Starter #14
This is from a novice so it ma

This is from a novice so it may not even be worth 2 cents.

First, my carbs were set up by Terri Gerome in Atlanta who is pretty good at this stuff about 2 1/2 years ago. I have always had a small stumble when getting started, say from 1000RPM to maybe 2000RPM. Seems to bog down a little then really gets going. Everything else is like a jet plane.

I have always believed that this is just a function of the imperfection in the carburetor design. There is just not a perfect transition between the fuel being added by the idle jet transitioning through to the progression jet.


The only thing that people never seem to discuss, even though it is discussed in detail in the Weber Carburetor Manuals by Haynes and Braden, is the initial idle position of the throttle plate relative to the idle and progression holes. As I understand it the plate must be just above the idle hole so a vacuum is created but not that far open that it uncovers the progression hole. The only way to do this that I know of would be to remove the carb and check/set it on each carburetor. Then, when you adjust the idle screw you have an idea of starting position of the plate.

I guess in reality this is such a pain that unless you've just done a rebuild you assume the position is approximately correct, and do the carb tune up from there.

This is what I plan to do next week thanks to all your help using the JRV method of adjusting the primary carbs first, then the secondary, adjusting air bleed to balance individual throats (though from a quick synchrometer check they seem to be real close)and finally mixture via colortune.

Hey, let me know if I'm really off base on some of this stuff. Reading and understanding, though a good start, is one thing. Actually doing it, especially the number of times JRV has done it (tuning carbs, not sex), is another.

Again just my 1 cents worth.

Drew
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Drew,

you brought up an in


Drew,

you brought up an interesting point and my next Q to David...are those 3 or 4 progression port carbs on your engine?

second item of mention...one of the things to try has always been playing with idle jets...like stepping up to a .55 to try and mask the lean off idle condition.

Of course for the very brave (or foolhardy {
}) drilling the progression ports out to a slightly larger size was also another attempt to alleviate this stumbling condition. Can't say if it is the fix because I never tried it. But based on the fact that PMO went to all the trouble to redesign & manufacture Weber knockoffs that specifically addressed this transition problem I doubt there is one answer to this age old problem.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Drew,

I appreciate your tho


Drew,

I appreciate your thoughts and input. Your comment "There is just not a perfect transition between the fuel being added by the idle jet transitioning through to the progression jet.." is true, though with careful jetting and carb sizing, this "transisition" can sometimes be tuned out completely. I owned a repair/mecanical restoration shop for many years...and we did alot of Weber carb work. Often times, more effort went into dialing out this transition issue, than jetting the carbs for the rest of the powerband...

Likely, you've gathered that I'm very serious about having my BB run at her best...and value the input of other owners. Novice or not, either reading the words of others...or putting my thoughts to words, often helps me to see the problem from another angle that I may have overlooked, or didn't appreaciate its signnificance.

One of the reasons that Weber puts those brass plugs over the progessions hole is so one can observe the throttle plate position, in reference to the progression hole. In theory, if many factors are correct (timing, carb size, jetting, etc. are correct, the throttle plate will be in the correct position.

Going back to the issue at hand, I checked my carbs....and there are three drilled progession holes, with the 4th one having a factory plug in it. As I put more miles on the motor, she does appear to run a bit better...but not quite right yet. A good excuse to drive this "bad girl.."

Other than the "normal" Weber WSMs, the book "Weber Carbs" by John Passini has been m reference reading for a long time.

Regards to all,
David
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Update...
I took here on a 60


Update...
I took here on a 60 mile highway trip yesterday...Although the stumble is still there, it is noticeably better. More driving today...just hit the 300km point on the new engine.

Regards,

David
 
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