Ferrari Forums banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter #1
Hi JRV. I sent the old igniti

Hi JRV. I sent the old ignition box out to perma-tune. I got it back and installed it in the car,and it fired up and ran great. I deliverd the car about 2 weeks ago. I just recived a phone call saying that car would not start. I drove down to the dealership to were the car is and had a look. he car has no spark again. I checked for power at the coil and there is none. I had one of the guys crank the engine and still no power. I checked the wireing at the new ignition box. Power at the yellow wires(the 2 that are tied together),but no power comming out to the red wire to the coil.(as per the modifications in the little paper permatune gives you with the new box). The green wire that comes out of the box and goes the the pick-up on the side of the distributor also has nothing. Is there a possablity that the box permatune did for me is no good? have you ever run into this? I'm I checking this thing correctly? Is there somthing else that you can think of that may be causeing this problem?

The car ran and drove great, they parked the car in ths showroom it sat inside there for a couple of days. They went to go and move it and nothing. I asked if they needed to boost the car and they said they didn't need to. The bat is brand new and has lots of cranking power.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as always. if anybody else has had a similar problem please post your ideas!!
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #3
Tom,

sounds like the Perma-


Tom,

sounds like the Perma-tune packed up. I haven't had one go bad in a week...but....I'd get on the phone first thing in the morning with Lonnie and get him to take care of the situation.

I'm not much of a believer in coincedence, so the CD Box is where I'd concentrate my efforts.

If a worker jumped the car and popped the box are they really going to fess up ?

Please keep us up to speed on what Lonnie says.

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #4
I'm defenatly going to cal

I'm defenatly going to call as soon as I get in the door. This really is distressing,seeing as it took them almost a month to do the box. But before I jump to any conclutions I'll see what they say. Thanks for the help JRV. I will for sure keep you and the rest of the fine folks here updated.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #5
I talked to perma-tune and the

I talked to perma-tune and they don't think it's the box(obviously) I have been doing a bunch of wiring checks, and all seems to be good. Is it possiable that the distributor pick-up magnet went south for the winter? I have tried to locate one of these things but nobody has one,and the only way you can get it is to buy a complete distributor....which by the way nobody has either. This pick must give out and analog signal to the ignition box. The from the box it goes to tach in the car. While I'm cranking the engine the tach in the car does not move at all. Not even a little jump..nothing. This is why I'm thinking the pick-up is not working.

My question to you is have you ever seen this happen? Have you ever had to replace a distributor on a BB512 for this reason? It seems rather strange to me...but at the same time it's all that is left in the circiut to check!! If I do find a distributor I'll bet it won't be cheap either. AAArrrgggg!!!

JRV or anybody. Do you have a wiring diagram for this car for the ignition system? If you do is there anyway that you could scan it and e-mail it to me? [email protected]
Once again I thank you for all your help

Tom
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #6
Tom,

never seen a hall effe


Tom,

never seen a hall effect sender in a distrib go bad yet. The distribs themselves (flywieghts) don't last long enough for the hall effect senders to go bad.

You can test the distrib trigger with an MSD if you have one laying around. Pull the distrib and hook up some temporary wires and spin the distrib with the coil wire near ground.

I'll look for a wiring diagram and see what I can do. Also I have a few old Boxer Distribs upstairs, I'll pull one down and see if I can develop a Distrib Alone Test .

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #7
Tom,

I'm actually able


Tom,

I'm actually able to watch reactions of the reluctor with an Ohm Meter between the body ground and the sender lead by spinning the distrib.

I'm not sure if that's a/the definative test, but it seems to show the field collapsing.

JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks so much for the help...

Thanks so much for the help....I will try these tests tomorrow. If there is anything I can do to help you out in the future please don't hesitate to contact me.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #9
Tom,

I have a fair amount o


Tom,

I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with the BB ignition systems...and can provide you with a pin-out diagram for the spark box.

JRVs test for the hall-effect unit is sufficient enough to determine if it's working properly. With the distributor unplugged from the harness, you should perform the same test to verify yours. Also, veify that this signal exists at the spark box connector (with the box unplugged.)

The hall effect pick-up output, in itself, is not enough of a signal to trigger a tachometer response...as the spark box provides amplification of the trigger pulse. Hense, no tach movement on cranking doesn't point to a fault.

True, the pick-up units are not available seperately, though some distibutors have a spare mounted on them that is not used...and can be swaped with a suspected bad one.

Basically, there are four tests that need to be done.

1- Verify voltage at the spark box, using the box itself as the reference ground. If the spark box is isolated from the chassis ground, and the box itself is not grounded properly...the ignition system will not work reliably.

2-Verify voltage at the coil on cranking. This test may be non-conclusive if the box is not receiving a signal from the hall-effect pickup.

3-Off car testing of the ignition coil

4-Verify pulse, waveform, etc. from hall-effect unit.

If there's voltage at the spark box, and it's receiving a pulse from the hall-effect unit...and the coil and coil wire test good, the problem points back to the box itself.

One thing that I have seen on numerous occasions is the wire spades have pushed out of the connectors between the spark box and the engine harness. A light tug on the wires (on the chassis side of the harness) will verify the solidness of the connections.

Please let me know if you need the wiring diagram/pin-out...and I'll dig it up for you.

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #10
Yes David I could definatly us

Yes David I could definatly use the diagram..Thanks so much for your input!! I sent to box to Perma-tune to get it updated with thier high outpu system. Seeing that it is a high energy type ignition(along the same lines as an msd box) there is no "key on engine off" power at the coil. The coil is only fired when the box recives the tach signal from the pick-up in the distributor.. The box then "steps-up" the voltage producing a hotter spark. The new box came with an iginition coil and complete instructions on how to insatall the system using the exsisting wiring in the car.

I spent a few hours on the car today checking all connections and wireing condition. All seems o.k. I just feel I'm over looking something. This is were the wiring diagrams would be extremly helpful. I called Ferrari of Atlanta,and Trutlands to find out if a service manuel is available..guess what...NLA!!

Thanks again for all your helps guys I'm very greatful to you both!!
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #11
Tom,

Here's the pin-out


Tom,

Here's the pin-out for the spark box...

As you look into the wiring connector on the engine side of the harness, starting from the left upper pin:

Red->Coil (+)terminal
Black-> To Hall effect pick-up ground (at distributor)
Green-> To Hall effect pick-up stud (at distributor)

Now, starting from the right upper pin:

Yellow-> Coil (-) terminal
Yellow-> Power, switched from ignition switch
Brown-> To tachometer (signal output)

Note: The Brown and Green wires going to the hall-effect sender are a shielded pair.

HTH...

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #12
Thank you very much David!!! I

Thank you very much David!!! I will get back to you on what I find. I have a funny feeling that the box packed in though. It's the only thing that makes any sense to me.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #13
Tom,

You're welcome!


Tom,

You're welcome!

One other thing I would verify...though a bit on the wild side. Is the ignition rotor actually turning when the engine is turned over? As I sure you know, no pulse means no spark...and all else could still test fine.

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #14
The rotor is turning!! :eek:&#41

The rotor is turning!! :eek:) no problem there.
I'm going for a cruze....I also have to get some wrapping paper...I got a wedding reception to go to tonight..(yawn..open bar though!!) I'll check back in the morning..if I can
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #16
Tom,

Did this car get sorte


Tom,

Did this car get sorted out...?
If so, what did the problem turn out to be?


Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #17
Hi dave...I just figured it ou

Hi dave...I just figured it out today. It was a probem with the perma-tune unit all along. Needless to say I'm none to pleased. I have spend so much time playing with this car..walking up and down dead end streets. I don't really blame the guys at perma-tune as i did send it back to them to check it. They said it tested fine and sent it back to me.

I reinstalled it in the car and nothing. I then removed it from the car(again) and wired it up directly to the components with my own wiring. Still nothing.

I removed the distributor, coil,and box and set them up on a bench with my own home made test rig. Turning the distributor still prodced no spark. I then started to probe around the tach out put terminals with my test light hooked up to the postive terminal of the car battery I was using as a power supply. As soon as I touched(put power to) the tach termainl I got a flash of spark out of the coil. I then was able to spin the distributor and make the coil spark.

I got on the phone with Lonnie and told him what I found. He seems to agree that they may have over looked somthing in the box..or they got one with an intermintant transformer problem.

I tell ya I have never encountered a sitiation like this before. Going over everything ten times over and the problem remained. I wish I had of gone with my gut and asked Lonnie to swap me another box. But I was going by the fact that he told me the box was fine. I trusted him,and I beleive that he trusted his equipment that was telling him so.

Such is life in the big city i guess.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #18
Now antother quick question.

Now antother quick question. Seeing as I did have the distributor removed from the car, I was wonder if there was any particular way it should be installed back in the car. When I removed it I did the follow steps.
1. Positioned flywheel marks at PM1-6 with the pointer mounted to the engine block.
2. The "low" side of the rotor with the little red mark on the terminal was pointing at the scribe mark on the distributor housing.
3. I marked the position of the distributor housing with white out and also marked the position of the rotor with whiteout.

Should the "low" side of the rotor be lined up dead-on with the mark on the distributor housing after install? It's kind of hard to tell with how the is distributor mounted in the car.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #19
Sounds right Tom. The red mark

Sounds right Tom. The red mark/s on the distrib are #1. When the engine runs again the Distrib will have to be advanced slightly to get you to the 10 degrees. Should be well within your range of adjustment from what I'm reading.

Do you have a verdict on this bizzare problem yet?

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #20
HOLY SMOKES I just read your o

HOLY SMOKES I just read your other post!!!

IT WAS THE PERMA-TUNE ALL ALONG AS SUSPECTED !!!

This is VERY Disturbing!!! Very Disturbing!
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top