Fully serviced TR develops oil leak AGAIN

2921 Views 17 Replies 0 Participants Last post by Jeff Green, Jan 26, 2004

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Discussion Starter · Jan 22, 2004

I type this with a heavy heart

I type this with a heavy heart. Many may recall that last fall I pulled the motor out of my TR to service it due to an oil leak. It turned out to be the crank front main seal. I replaced it and also detailed the motor up all pretty. I did enjoy a few drives before winter hit. Tonight as I'm jacking the car up for development of an exhaust system I've been working on, I notice oil drops in numerous places, motor, frame, I just couldn't believe it. Looking up the front of the engine, I see evidence of oil coming out of the bottom drain holes in the cam belt covers. From what I can see of the belts they look dry. But the front of the motor is wet with oil. The cam bearings were fine with no leaks, and I can't believe that the new main seal would leak, but I guess it's possible. I am VERY VERY SICK at the thought of pulling the motor back out of the car.

Where are other potential leak points that would result in oil where I've described? Could the water pump leak? Could oil be leaking behind the front engine cover and seaping out the outer main seal?

I'm to DEPRESSED to even be upset about this...just walking around in a fog of despair. Any opinions are welcome...Thanks to All.

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Discussion Starter · #2 · Jan 22, 2004

Sorry to read this, Jeff.

Sorry to read this, Jeff.

Did you replace the front cam seals (O-rings)? What did you seal them with? Did you replace the rubber seals in the cam covers?

Another site would be the small O-rings on the cam pulley bolts.

I rebuilt my water pump. Oil can leak from the engine, but it appears that it would enter the water chamber, first.

If you didn't disturb the front cover, I don't see how it can leak....if it did, it would leak from the outer edges. Oil can come from the front rubber seal.....How did you prepare and seal this?

G

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 22, 2004

Hi Henry. The front cam seals

Hi Henry. The front cam seals looked nice and dry so I did not replace them, they were replaced at the previous major a few thousand miles before I fixed the main seal. I used a piece of exhaust pipe flared out to the correct size to drive the new seal into the front cover. I smeared a very thin coating of silicone on the outer edge, and lubed the rubber seal with engine oil. It was a very straight forward job with no surprices....so I thought! I will try and get a better look tomorrow. I'll clean the motor, and start the car and watch from below. Maybe it's something else and simply flowing around and giving me the wrong idea. That would be nice.....but......probably not.

G

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 22, 2004

Jeff: When I replace seals, I

Jeff: When I replace seals, I usually run a croucus (sp?) cloth around the steel that the seal runs on. This takes away any "very fine" ridging, etc.

I replaced all the front seals, even if they didn't leak. My last major was is 97-98. I noticed that those that did not leak still where "harder" than the new seals. I guess this was due to the age. I can see your point, in that the non-leakin seals weren't that old...........I would have done the same.

In order for oil to get into the front cover (do you have the rear cover installed?), I would suspect the cam gear bolt O-rings leaking, especially if the rear covers where on.

G

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 22, 2004

Jeff, I don't have TR exp.

Jeff, I don't have TR exp. but it sounds like a Cam seal leak to me. If it is a cam seal leak I am not sure it would be safe to let it leak for long as it could get on the timing belts. I am sorry to read about this after all of your hard work.
Just a side note. I replaced cam seals on one of my cars and it leaked at the beginning, not that bad but it did leak. After I drove the car for a little while the leak stopped. Now this might not apply but IMO my seal got lubed and enlarged, now no leaks. It may just take sometime for the seal to enlarge and seal the cam. Just a thought.

G

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 22, 2004

Hi Jeff,

I know how depress

Hi Jeff,

I know how depressed you must feel. Really sorry to hear this.

There are scores of things that can leak on Ferraris, clean it off as best you can and track down the source,

Regards, JRV

G

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 23, 2004

I wrote an article on oil leak

I wrote an article on oil leak detection in Prancing Horse 138. Try using Kent-Moore p/n J28431-1 dye made for this purpose. This is a 1 oz. bottle, designed to treat 4-5 quarts of oil, so you'll need three bottles. It also requires a blacklight such as used with Magna-Flux equipment. You may be able to borrow one from a repair shop. A heavy truck repair shop in my area had both the dye and portable blacklight. After cleaning up the present mess, add the dye, run the engine, and look for a bright green trail from the source of the leak. If you have a copy of the article, the color photos will show how well this stuff works.

G

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jan 23, 2004

Thanks Bill....that is exactly

Thanks Bill....that is exactly the plan of attack I'm gonna do.

One other thing I noticed...the passenger's side cam belt is running towards the rear of the cam sprockets, not in the center. There is actually part of the belt overhanging past the edge of the sprockets. This is scary....wouldn't this cause excessive stress on the belt, possibly leading to the unthinkable? I'm also debating in my head about pulling the motor again, or just removing the oil and gas tanks to get some room to work. Everything else is fine, with all the work to be done in the front of the motor. What a bummer....this situation is actually affecting my mood through out the day, and my sleep a bit. I'll get over it, no choice. It could happen on any car....not just a Ferrari.

I'll keep you all posted. And Thanks for all the advice and help.

G

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jan 23, 2004

Jeff,

yes, you have alot of

Jeff,

yes, you have alot of hard work facing you. Ferraris unfortunately are very unforgiving at times. Having to do something over is certianly not new in the Ferrari game. Cheer up though...if this was easy everybody would be in the game and success wouldn't be so special any more.

Best Regards, JRV

G

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jan 23, 2004

Hi Jeff:

I am interested in

Hi Jeff:

I am interested in this "overhang" issue of the right side belt........am I correct in assuming that the left belt runs within the cam sprocket confines?

Why do TR owners have to live so far apart? Wouldn't it be a LOT more fun owning a Ferrari, if one had a fellow owner (mechanically inclined, of course) near by?

G

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 23, 2004

Hi Henry:

Yeah...with all t

Hi Henry:

Yeah...with all the TRs made out there you'd think we'd see more of them. It would be nice to have another TR owner close by to compare notes with and work on each other's cars, and take an occasional cruise now and then. Why don't you move to Michigan?

It's sooooo cold I really don't have the ambition to work on the car....I could crank up the furnace in my little shop, but the price of natural gas in my area has jumped dramatically, like 45%. I think I will force myself to investigate during the weekend anyway.

The cam belt overhang issue really worries me. I remember during servicing that the left side wanted to run off the front of the sprokets, until I tightened the tensioner down. Then it was fine. The right side acted fine then, I wonder what happened to make do this now? Either way it's scary to think I only have a partial contact. I fear it could slip off, or jump timing. So I'm reluctant to even start it up again. Funny that the car ran fine the whole time I was driving it....and then this. I still have to figure out what's next, dropping all the tanks or dropping the motor. Either way not much fun.

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G

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jan 23, 2004

Jeff,

agree it's probab

Jeff,

agree it's probably best not to run the engine until you can insure that the belt won't complicate matters.

BTW: it's warm down here, maybe everyone should move to Texas so you can work & drive year round...

Regards, JRV

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G

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jan 23, 2004

Jeff: It would seem to me tha

Jeff: It would seem to me that there must be an alignment issue here. I don't know the physics of it, but I would think that the "driving" gear (on the crank), will determine where the belt will go on the "driven" gear (cam sprockets).

The outer belt gear, on the crank, runs the right side cam gears. There is a shim between it and the inner gear. If this shim was not placed back, then the outer gear would be closer to the engine, forcing the belt to run towards the inside of the cam gears.......possible cause of the overlap?

Note that there is also a shim between the inner crank gear and the engine.

If the inner shim is in, and the outer one missing, then; the belt will run true on the left side, and run somewhat inward on the right side. From what I read of your posts, this seems to be the problem.

Just my thoughts.

BTW: It is COLD here!!!!!!!!.......-14 degrees yesterday morning. I am going to Florida next week........maybe you should do the same!

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G

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jan 24, 2004

LOL !!

Florida sounds great

LOL !!

Florida sounds great to me...but I must go to Japan to learn a new process for our company soon, sometime in mid-February.

As for having the crank sprokets installed properly, I reviewed the pictures I took during the service, but none show what I need to see. But from memory I believe I installed them correctly. Kinda hard to make a mistake there...but I suppose I could have. When I rotated the engine with the new belts on there wasn't any trouble, and I turned the motor over numerous times. All seemed fine. But we'll see.

Still not sure how to proceed....drop motor or drop tanks. I'm inclined to drop the tanks first so I'll do some investigating and see if it's gonna be possible. Since all the work I must do is behind the belt covers, this makes the most sense at the moment.

G

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jan 26, 2004

Hey Jeff,
Been following your

Hey Jeff,
Been following your threads on your TR, very sorry to hear about the leak!! I also have a TR and try and do everything I can on it!! But as you know shit does happen, all we can do is learn from it I guess... I have also been there, I know that don't help much, but hang in there!!

Keep us posted on your progress..
Take Care..Robert

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G

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jan 26, 2004

Jeff: This afternoon I was wo

Jeff: This afternoon I was working on my TR engine....placing in new shim buckets, installing the cams, and old belts (for now)........I adjusted the valves. When I installed the belts, due to the tight fit, I was only able to get them to rest on the very outside edge of the cam sprockets. After rotating the engine several times, the belts re-aligned to the "center" of the cam sprockets.......there is about a 1/8 inch space between the edge of the belt and the sprocket, front and back......the sprocket being about 1/4 inch wider than the belt. The belt rested in the center of the crank sprocket, with about 1/16 inch free, front and back.....the sprocket is wider than the belt, but not by much, from what I can see. It seems that the shims, that I referred to earlier, prevent the belt from moving too far, in or out.

Re: Removal of engine vs fuel tanks; I looked at the firewall of the car, and holy S**T........there is an awful LOT to remove, that lies right in front of the engine. You will have to remove the oil tank, since it appears that the left cam cover cannot be removed without doing this. To be beneath the center of the car, without a lift, would only add more frustration. If I where to have to remove the fuel tanks, I am sure I would first remove the engine just to have "reasonable" access to them.

I would recommend removing the engine again. You are already very familiar with the procedure......should be easy. I can only foresee nightmares in removing the tanks, with the engine in the car.

Just my thoughts!

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G

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jan 26, 2004

Hi Jeff:
I am very sorry to h

Hi Jeff:
I am very sorry to hear of your leak, in case you have to go back in there, I thought I would provide you this tip. (I have had to go back into things before and I know it sucks, but it usually goes much quicker the second time)
In some cases seals get damaged when installing them over a sharp edge of a shaft. The best example of this is valve guide seals because they have to be installed over the keeper grooves. To prevent damage to the valve guide seal, the seal manufacturer usually provides a thin plastic sleeve to put over the valve stem (almost like a soda straw) to allow the seal to be installed damage free over the grooves.
I have done the following when installing seals on shafts with anything less then perfectly smooth transitions.
1) Cut a piece of .002” thick steel shim stock (available from a machine shop supply store) about a ½ “ longer then the circumference of the shaft where the seal will be installed over and about 3” wide. I have found that .002” is rigid enough to allow the seal to slide on, but thin enough to not damage a seal. Deburr and polish edges with medium grit sandpaper. Clean the shim stock perfectly clean with solvent, etc.
2) Roll the shim stock into a tapered “funnel” with one end a diameter to fit over the shaft and the other a slightly smaller Dia. (small enough to allow for a smooth entry of the seal) Tape the shim stock on the small Dia. end into this shape.
3) Oil the cleaned “tapered tube” and slide it on the shaft.
4) Install the seal and remove the tube. (see picture)

Last comment is there any way to fire the engine-up and run it before you put it all back together? It may be a good idea to try this?
Best luck to you on this next go around.

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G

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jan 26, 2004

Henry: The fuel tanks drop ou

Henry: The fuel tanks drop out the bottom, the only hard part is removing the various fuel lines as they become "permanent" over time and heat exposure. You may recall I have previously removed my air pump system with all it's plumbing, so I have more working space than "normal" in front of my engine. Since any work that I must do is confined to the area behind the belt covers, I'm just not sure it's worth it yet to pull the engine. The oil tank may be a bugger...we'll have to take a closer look. I'm not ruling out yanking the motor, but doing it without a hoist by myself is quite a bit of work, and at times I think risky to me and/or the car if something goes wrong.

Mark: Thank You Very Much for the Tip. That is an excellent idea. About firing up the engine before assembling everything, not sure. If the gas/oil tanks are out, no way to start her up. If the tanks are back in, no way to put the belt covers back on. Kind of a catch-22. I have been thinking along those lines though.

Lots of great advice and support from everyone...that is the reason that FERRARI-TALK IS THE BEST !! I will keep you all updated with my exploits, and hopefully some pics too. At least I have all winter to do this...no rush to get it done, probably couldn't be a better time for this to happen. I'm just trying to make something positive out of this situation.

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