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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Overall the condition is GOOD.

Overall the condition is GOOD.

Leakdown showed 3% accross the board (one was 4, one was 2).

The car needs a major service. The timing belts were last replaced when the engine was built in 1984. I thought it had been more recent, but the engine builder told me this was the date. Mileage was 56,230 at the time so only 10,000 miles in ~20 years. Belts, hoses, etc probably need replacement. He said the cam seals and the cam drive seal were both leaking oil and the heads need to be torqued (leaks a little when the engine was running).

Carbs were a little rich but that's an easy fix.

Also, he didn't think the paint was all that great. It was "OK" in his words and maybe a good detailer with a buffing wheel, polish and wax can make it shine again. He said that he'd seen better paint.

The alternator failed his test and needs to be replaced and the battery was weak (because of the alternator). The alternator worked, just not too well.

Driving back is not an option with the timing belts issue.

So, I'm looking at $4,000 (minimum) in service + transport ($1,200) and it may need paint in a few years (doubtful, but a factor)

So, not what to do. I think he'll get pissed when I offer him $22k (he's asking $28k, was asking $32k in May) for it but then, I'm the only caller and he can't sell it in California b/c their is no emmisions equipment on the car.

He reitterated several times the engine was VERY strong. Stumbled a little at low RPM's b/c of the rich carbs but it was strong. Engine rebuild included 10:1 pistons, reprofiled cams, and rejetted carbs.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Sean,

I wouldn't meet h


Sean,

I wouldn't meet his price of 28k. That is way too high. The engine might be strong, but the belts are weak and a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. I've passed on good examples that are fully sorted for sale at 30k.

What I've found to be common practice is to list out all the things that need to be changed to get the car in the condition you feel is fair for the asking price and split the difference. For example, if the seller is asking for 28k, then visualize a car that is worth 28k to you. Then look at how much you're looking to fix (about 6k) and split the difference. So your offer could be 25k. That's if you're feeling generous because the guy properly represented the car and it is indeed a good find. If you feel like hunting for bargains or if you want to show this guy a bit of reality, I'd definitely offer 22k and ride it out.

I think he will listen to you as long as you justify the expenses. If he is adamant about the engine's health, I suggest you ask him to make the car a strong runner and THEN pay him the full 28k for it. His opinion means little compared to what a reputable mechanic's opinion means.

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, it's all over now.

Well, it's all over now.

He just called (again, called earlier and I was putting the kids to bed, said I'd call back - he waited 20-minutes).

I mentioned everything above and he said he'd come down $2,000. ($26K). I'm still not clear on the belts, He said it was 5-6 yrs ago but Enzo Motors says it was 1984 when the engine was done so I don't know who did the belts when. In fact, I didn't do much talking. He kept talking about how strong the engine was, blah, blah, blah.. I knew when he brought that up a second time it would be a no go.

He sounded impatient, said he'd come down $2k and any lower he'd just keep the car b/c he couldn't afford to sell it for less. Though Blackhorse was telling me about the belts b/c "They just want to sell you the service"....crap...I really thought this was going to work out.

JRV, I remember seeing a '77GTB in your shop that had the engine out of it. Does the owner want to sell it?
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Sean,

If the owner doesn&#3


Sean,

If the owner doesn't have any records of the service, as far as anyone is concerned...it was never done. Those are the rules of this "game". He can claim whatever he wants but at the end of the day, just about every educated buyer is going to call BS on that one.

Give him some time. There are plenty of other 308s out there. Also tell him the service would be done closer to where you live so the PPI mechanic would have no benefit to tell you the car needs it. It's a moot point anyways, because the car has only traveled 10k miles in 20 years. The engine, no matter how strong is probably going to need a healthy sorting.

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sean,

I am following your s


Sean,

I am following your story quiet regularly since I am a step back from you in the process of buying a 77 308 GTB.

If the broker I deal with stays cooperative, I should have a PPI of the car in a week or so.

Questions for you thus:
Did you go to California during the PPI?
If not, how did you find a trusty mechanic to be your eyes and judgment caller? After all pardon me to be sometimes paranoid, but there are a lot of crooks out there?
Did you require a written PPI report with pictures? Is there a warranty associated with a PPI?

Good luck to you in you grail chase!
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I posted a message here and on

I posted a message here and on f-chat and several poeple recommended Blackhorse Motors in LA. I talked with Carl and Steve. Steve did the PPI and faxed me the results of the leakdown and his inspection. He also called and went over it with me. He was very straight forward about the car and I felt he gave me a good opinion (the above is a very brief summary). We probably talked for 30-40 minutes about the PPI.

I did not go to CA, but my uncle lives in LA and he looked the car over, test drove it, and took a bunch of pictures. It's really a good car, I just need a better price for it to work for me. (engine has LOT of power b/c of the 10:1 pistons and cams). Maybe for you it would be fine. Their are pictures on another thread here and I could send you more if you're interested in this car. But know that their are NO emmisions on the car and it basically needs a major service. Because of this I cannot drive it home and the cost gets kinda high for me.

No warrenty with a PPI. It's just an opinion of the cars condition.

By the way, didn't we converse via e-mail a few months back? I thought you worked for elf-fina and were going on an extended assignment or something?

Anyway, if you want some pics let me know and I'll give you his name and number and I'll scan and e-mail the PPI to you. If you want one on your own, call Bill Gojkov at Enzo in LA and have him do it. He was going to actually go to the owner's place, but he could not do a Leakdown or compression check and that's why I went to Blackhorse. But if you trust my guy you wouldn't need that and you'd have another opinion of the car.

Do a search for Blackhorse on f-chat.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Figure it needs 5k of work. Th

Figure it needs 5k of work. That brings it down to 23k, not bad. I don't think I would go any higher because of the current market, the model and condition of the car.

I saw an 83 QV Red/Tan 47,000. miles with complete records and recent service go from 32,000 down to 27,500 in 4 months before it disappeared in July. A year ago the car would have sold easily for 32,000. The market is down right now and there are some good deals to be had.

My personal feelings are the guy CAN'T afford NOT to sell it, especially if it's in Cali with no emissions. Whos he gonna call?

Twocents
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well at least you have a reali

Well at least you have a realistic expecation of what the cars are worth/going for. Ask any other 308 owner and they'll tell you a good one is worth 30K. Of course, theirs is a "good one" but they wouldn't sell it for less than $35!

Of course, none of them are in the market or trying to sell while I am, yet I don't know what I'm talking about!! ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
>>My personal feelings

>>My personal feelings are the guy CAN'T afford NOT to sell it, especially if it's in Cali with no emissions. Whos he gonna call? <<

I agree...a REAL BUYER is awful hard to say no to if you're really trying to sell.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
JRV, what do YOU think of the

JRV, what do YOU think of the car from what I've written? I don't think it's been neglected so much as that he's just not driven it much. Probably doesn't want to get caught in a random test and have his emissions fail.

Overall I think it's a good car but the 19yrs w/o a Major is a LONG time.

By the way, maybe you didn't see my question, but I recall seeing a '77GTB in your shop with the engine out. Any chance that owner is looking to sell?

Thanks
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
...."ask any owner and he&

...."ask any owner and he'll tell you a good one goes for 30k".

Yes, I still say that. One without a bunch of issues. When people ask me what they go for I tell them, "Depending on the year and condition of the car they will run between 30 and 40k" (for a good one).

....."mine is a good one and I wouldn't sell it for less than 35k".

Mine is not pristine, has it's warts like most but unless I get 35k I won't sell it. Not because it is worth that much necessarily but for purely economic reasons. What can I get into that is as well sorted as mine and in as good a shape as mine for LESS than 35k? I haven't found it yet so I am going to sit tight.

If you bought this GTB for 25k and dropped 5k into it you would have a good driver for 30k (without the new paint). Ask yourself would you pay 30k for it if you saw it.

One more thing to add to the equation, How much is your time worth? Do you have any?

If I had had a girlfriend when I bought my 308 I would be single now because I spent every spare minute I had for 5 months getting my car road worthy and presentable

Just food for thought.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
P.S. I still don't have a

P.S. I still don't have a girlfriend and for some reason it doesn't bother me.

Probably because of the yellow mistress in the garage.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
>>P.S. I still don&#39

>>P.S. I still don't have a girlfriend and for some reason it doesn't bother me. <<

For me I finally figured out that I'm far better suited to the Tag & Release program rather than the Tag & Bag program !!

After the thrill of the Hunt is over I become bored/distracted quickly...so instead of being a Hunter/Gatherer I am far better suited just being a Hunter. {
}
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Oldslow,

I was not necessar


Oldslow,

I was not necessarily talking to you. Just the owners who insist on how much cars are worth but they're not in the market, so to speak, and are really just having some fantasies about the value of their car.

Sure, a really GOOD carb'd 308 is worth $30k. This one is not and I've posted why. Yet other with a car in similar condition would insist their car is worth that. Why, because they don't want to sell it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sean,

all the good cars wil


Sean,

all the good cars will have issues...

life is full of compromises.

you felt the red carpets were an issue on the 77 I sold..and it was TO YOU..but the guy that was selling it was perfectly happy with the carpets...sure if you had offered him $1000 more for the car he would have gladly bought you any color carpets YOU wanted..

IMO every older car can be picked apart in an attempt to deminish it's worth...but the final call belongs to the guy that owns it, and has put HIS MONEY where his mouth is and poneyed up for a Ferrari and whatever else he wanted/needed during his ownership..

Gotta run..
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Can't really blame a guy f

Can't really blame a guy for trying to make as much as possible and thinking his car is worth more than it is. Just vote with your wallet (as you have done) and don't buy it. Present your offer, justify it and walk away. Follow up a few times later but remain firm. If he too is firm, then it wasn't meant to be.

The thing that pisses me off is people who ask insane money because they claim the car is perfect when it is riddled with flaws. Either that or people who completely lowball prices on fixes and drop the price very little when called on the crappy condition of their car. That's an easy one to overcome though. Just ask the owner to do the fixes and you'll buy at the higher price.

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Taek,

Here's the issue.


Taek,

Here's the issue...if the market was completely set by buyers based on a buyers perspective...all old cars including Ferraris would be worth $500...

If a buyer thinks the car is dirty when he comes to look at it "some" view it like this...WELL..the car is DIRTY..WE NEED to DEDUCT $250 for a detail...while others view it like this... gee..the car is dirty..first thing I need to do when I get it home is wash it or get it detailed.

Two different ways of looking at the same issue. One attitude understands dirty to him is a problem for him..the other attitude tries to force his issue with dirty onto someone elses shoulders.

It's a tough game, I've been on both sides of the coin. But happiness is simply about attitude or attitude adjustment. And avoiding unrealistic expectations.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
JRV,

In retrospect on the &


JRV,

In retrospect on the '77 you had, I should have at least talked to the owner. That was my mistake and why I've gone so far as a PPI and having my uncle look it over with this one (and almost flew out this weekend). Yeah, the carpets were and issue with me but that was an easy fix. This whole process has been a big learning experience for me. Buying a Ferrari is not like buying some other used car and for someone who's only followed the cars, but never experienced ownership. I've learned a lot about the cars over the last year I never knew (despite drooling over them since I was about 10).

In regards to the current car, I'm not trying to diminish it's worth so much as figure out what it will REALLY cost me to buy the car when it's all said and done. A few things I failed to mention were that the guy said the engine was rebuilt a few years back. Well, a few years turned out to be 19-years and that was the last time the belts were done also. I guess I had one impression from the owner about how he'd taken care of it, but PPI and review of records say something different and it's giving me pause. It makes me say, OK, after I do the belts and everything else I know it needs, what will happen next. As you've mentioned before, getting a low use car up and running again can cause a whole myriad of problems (it's only had 10K miles in the last 20-years, and lot of storage time). I just have to decide if I can risk the $$ of these other problems that may come up. Not to mention that the owner hasn't been 100% up front with the car.

Sorry if I'm pissing you off b/c you may think I'm some kind of wanna be. Really, I do want to buy a car, it just seem something happens (my fault or sellers fault) with the few I've been interested in. I asked your opinion b/c you've been in the business for a long time and I value it.

Thanks.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Sean,

you're not pissin


Sean,

you're not pissing me off...the issue you need to realize isthat the price is going to be $20K-$25K for the good, the bad and the ugly. And the only ones that will come out in the green monetarily at the end of the day are the brokers/dealers/car lots. Owners will have to derive their own monetary wellness from the fun they have owning.

That's just how the game is, nothing you, I or anyone else can change it.

I can assure you that if the guy has owned the car 20 something years then at $25-$28K he is losing his ass financially on insurance alone. Let alone upkeep and housing. So obviously he has a LOSS threshold (as do all Ferrari Sellers) that he can't bring himself to cross. And understand I'm not talking this one specific car neccesarily but this car and generally across the board.

Every car will have issues...some simply more than others and it is very rare that asking/selling price has much to do with those issues.

The cars are locked in a range and with very few cars availible at any one given time it's likely to stay that way.

I'm glad you're learning that it's not all as easy as it sounds.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I admire you for thinking this

I admire you for thinking this through and not letting your emotions take over the reasoning process.

Sleeping on decisions has helped me achieve clarity. Making a list of pros and cons with dollar figures attached also helps.

Good luck
 
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