Ferrari Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter #1
While rebuilding the front and

While rebuilding the front and rear suspension on my 82 308 GTSi I decided to replace the brake lines with stainless steel - also rebuild the brake calipers. Purchased Goodrich stainless steel brake lines from Damon Tweaks (UK) and now have flair issue. Once the hard lines are attached to the stainless lines there is slight play (in and out) and I'm certain they will leak. Suggestion would be most gratefully received.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #2
>>slight play (in

>>slight play (in and out) and I'm certain they will leak.<<

have you taken the suspect fitting back apart and inspected the internal flare seat for compatibility with the hard line flare?

also a call to your brake line supplier is in order to question whether they sild you the wrong lines.

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #3
Once verifying the flare angle

Once verifying the flare angles, you will likely need to get Copper Flare Gaskets to help the seal (you old hard lines are trying to mate with a new surface after 20+ years of "marriage" to your old lines!)

Also, my new lines went "deeper" into the mounting bracket, affecting the angle that the hard lines went in to them, causing seal problems. Make sure if this is the case that the angle is PERFECTLY straight into them.

And finally, they need to be TIGHT. If you have the hard line fitting tight (11mm flare wrench) into the new SS brake lines, there should be no free play.

You're correct: if you DO have free play, fluid will leak out from behind the nut.

--Mike
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #4
Not sure about using copper se

Not sure about using copper sealing washers on brake line junctions...would like to hear David's, Bill's, Bob's and others opinions on this.

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #5
With well over 100 years of co

With well over 100 years of combined experience, I am waiting for the verdict.

JL
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #6
Copper flare gaskets were reco

Copper flare gaskets were recommended (and sent) to me by Orme Bros., the US Goodrich fabricator and distributor. They said the leaks are a common problem, due to not bad flare angles, but just that the old hard lines had already formed themselves to the original lines, and the gaskets (metal conical washers) help perfect the seal.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #7
Mike,

how many brake lines


Mike,

how many brake lines have Orme Bros. and BF Goodrich actually "installed themselves" and over what lenght of time? What is the real intended purpose of copper flare washers? Aren't they used in Automotive applications to seal refrigerant system flare fittings?

I have to wonder why Auto Manufacturers themselves don't use copper on the original instalations?

Why in 30 yrs I've never had an old brake line and new brake line combo leak?

Why is the angled flare sealing system used in the first place?

I'm sure a few more questions will come to mind.

I can't begin to count the numbers of brake hoses I've replaced, Stock & SS and NEVER had a leak.

I can think of several reasons off the top of my head that make using a copper sealing washer risky on brake applications. Un-uniform deformation of the washer, off centered alignment plugging the fluid channel, soft metal preventing the swedged fit neccesary to insure a positive lifetime lock. If I really work at it I'd bet I could think of a few more issues of concern.

Now, my theory is that if the lines leak or are loose then the SS line is mismachined or cut at the wrong angle to be compatible and the solution is to find a line of high enough quality to be a perfect match and make a perfect seal.

If I live long enough to see manufacturers finally stop building their mistakes then maybe I'll take what they say with a little more confidence.

Regards, JRV
BTW: I didn't ask for OB or BFG opinions, I asked for the opinions of the list of experts that I know & trust that are members here to bring their years of experience to the table.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #8
I agree with JR here. The copp

I agree with JR here. The copper washers solve the leaking issue, but what new issues do they create if any? And why doesn't the OEM hoses require copper washers? A good question to ask the "Experts" who have decades of experience doing things the right way.

JL
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #9
Well, if I am an "expert&#

Well, if I am an "expert" after being a shop owner for 15 years, and another 15 years or so as a hard core "car guy", here's my spin....

Copper washers to seal brake hydraulic flare ends..Huh??? Never seen them, never used them...and never had a problem with OE replacement or aftermarket SS flex line leaking after installation, no matter how old the car or the brake lines were.

The only time I've ever run into a hydraulic fluid leak is when the OE steel buny lines are replaced with SS lines. SS takes a bit more compression force to seal, so the line fitting just needs a bit more torque to "seat" the bubble flare. Not a big deal...

A couple of thoughts...

-If the bundy line fits loose in the new SS flex line fitting, the fitting is incorrect in type. IMO, replacement with the correct line is the only safe solution.

-If the bundy line appears to fit "correctly" in the SS flex line fitting, yet seeps after tightening...first try slightly more torque. If it still leaks, the "flare" on the bundy line should be inspected for damage, and re-flared if necessary. This is a pretty rare occurance.

Considering brake line pressures at 1,000-2,500 psi, coupled with the potential and value of these cars, this is one area where I just wouldn't do a non-OE type repair.

Whatever vendor said "the age of the line and/or flare is a factor" is one vendor I would not do business with.

Just my 2 lires worth....

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #10
Oh...BTW,

I'm having a


Oh...BTW,

I'm having a custom set of stainless steel, kevlar coated flex lines made for my BB (they'll fit all BB models)...Drop me note if you'd like a set. They've got my OE lines as templates, so there will no issues with fitment, or leakage.

And...for you Lotus Elan owners out there (Bill?), I'm having a similar set made, as well. This should be a "big" demand item, I suspect! HA!

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #11
David,

Yes I'd qualify


David,

Yes I'd qualify you as an expert, along with several others here as I mentioned above. One requirement to be an expert of merit here is "lack of agenda", another is ability to put aside ego in the hunt for definative answers. I have noticed that quite a few here are able to meet both of those requirements along with the education and experience to properly analyze, evaluate and identify, and then forward "solutions" that are safe and correct.


Mike,

As we well know "theories" abound in the car world. Most of those theories can be proven false or weak without much trouble. One must be able to stand back and study these theories and come to conclusions that are not self serving.

I believe that the theory of using copper washers is a "self serving" theory developed by those with an agenda to push their product. I may be wrong, however, I see the use of copper washers as a suspect and potentially dangerous bandaid.

I think the point some may miss is that the study of auto repair is different than auto design/manufacture. Designers/Manufacturers "think" they have it right and glady sell to the world as if the design is the last word, however once in the real world many of the designs are flawed and just don't hold up. Examples are numerous. Designers/Manufacturers even sell designs/products that they know are flawed but the money grab prevents them from doing the right thing and redesigning in advance of selling. The study of repair trains one to spot these flaws in design and theory and hopefully effect permanent solutions that do hold up in the real world. This is why it's neccesary to "question authority" if you will (not just my right to do, but also my job), to get to the bottom of issues and develop the mental ability to see the big picture.

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #12
Very well put JR. The same goe

Very well put JR. The same goes for the Computer industry also.



JL
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #13
A lot of true insight in this

A lot of true insight in this thread, and it's appreciated. As a total amateur (getting a bit of experience here and there), it's nice to hear well thought out words and principles. They ring very true to this engineer's ears.

I agree about the copper washers; they do seem like a bandaid and I've always put them on with a wait and see approach; any further leaks? Brake lines leaking under hard pressure?

Unfrotunately, it's hard to say if they were truly needed; in one case, I don't think I had the hard line aligned properly (the depth of the goodridge lines changed the angle that the SS line went into the fitting); I also don't think I had them torqued enough. They were definitely not "loose," however.

I intend to keep a very close eye on things and will report back.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #14
check the angle of the flare.

check the angle of the flare. AN (army navy) is 37 degrees. most common flare is 45 degrees. Copper flare washers are used with connections that have been reinstalled and have small leak issues. Not the best way to go, but they will work if that is all you have on hand.I would find the real reason for the play in the fitting before I would use a bandade on the brake system
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #15
>>I'm having a cus

>>I'm having a custom set of stainless steel, kevlar coated flex lines made for my BB (they'll fit all BB models)...Drop me note if you'd like a set. They've got my OE lines as templates, so there will be no issues with fitment, or leakage.

And...for you Lotus Elan owners out there (Bill?), I'm having a similar set made, as well. This should be a "big" demand item, I suspect! HA! <<

Hmmmm...this got me thinking, maybe we need a Ferrari-Talk AfterMarket Parts Upgrades Section to provide interested parties with links and/or contact info?

Thoughts, Comments, Suggestions?

Regards, JRV
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #16
I like that idea. Would make i

I like that idea. Would make it easier to find what you're looking for.


JL
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #17
I like the idea of such a sect

I like the idea of such a section. In it could we also include a "substitution group".

Maybe, say CV joints from a Porsche Turbo also fit a Daytona or turn signal indicators from a certain Fiat also were used on a certain Ferrari model; and here is the link where to go to look for them? You get the idea.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #18
JRV said:
"Hmmmm...this g


JRV said:
"Hmmmm...this got me thinking, maybe we need a Ferrari-Talk AfterMarket Parts Upgrades Section to provide interested parties with links and/or contact info?"

I think it would be a good section, serve as a searchable reference library and certainly unique to your board.
It would probably be my homepage (my Mondial mods: ss/ brake lines, Speedline wheels, distributor upgrade, brembo drilled rotor upgrade, Weber carb conversion, performance cams, tubi (soon Larini), etc....).

thanks
Russ
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #19
Well...
Just when I thought i


Well...
Just when I thought it can't happen to me...as I've never had any problems replacing the flex hoses on any car...It did!

I had lines made for my BB, a set of SS flex hoses. My supplier, a long time friend and vendor...made up the lines using fittings that are only availale from Goodrich (in England). Seems that internal line fitting that Ferrari uses is pretty unique...

As anyone who has replaced the flex hoses on a 308, or BB knows, these lines are not easy to install, nor tighten! All said and done, I attempted to bleed the system this weekend, with a helper. The short story...two leaks. One of the leaks, where the factory hard line meets the new flex line fitting, simply needed a bit more tightening. The other leak...well, the problem is that the bubble flare on the factory hard line is flatten so much that it simply won't seal against the new Goodrich fitting. Carefully inspection reveals no apparent problem with the new fitting. The depth and angle of the fitting flare is correct.

The solution...Replace the factory steel line with a new one, with a fresh bubble flare. As I have replaced the flex hoses on this car three times since I bought her twenty years ago, the "bubbles" on the factory hard lines have compressed enough that one just won't seal anymore. Oddly, in the past, I've always used the OE ATE rubber flex hoses...and never had a leak. Oone could say it's a problem with the Goodrich fittings...I'm not so sure.

The hard line on the car that needs replacement, as there's just no room to reflare....goes from the front distribution block to the LF caliper. Likely, this is the most difficult line on the whole car to get to, as the distribution block is burried...

Such joy!

Regards,
David
 
G

·
Discussion Starter #20
And the plot thickens...

I&


And the plot thickens...

I've removed the hard line, from the car, that leaks into the new Goodrich fitting. It seems that no matter how tight the flare nut is...I can still move the line in and out. So, is it a) a flattened bubble flare on the line, or b)a mis-machined Goodrich fitting???

Well, when a screw that same hard line into one of the old ATE flex hose fittings, it secures very tightly.

Needless to say, I am not happy. I'm going to make a new hard line, with a fresh bubble flare...and hopefully this will be secure in the Goodrich line.

Regards to all,
David
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top